The Energy Exchange Podcast Episode 11: Senate Bill 966

Host Gary Sutton sat down with Pennsylvania State Senator Kristin Phillips-Hill of the 28th Senatorial District to discuss Senate Bill 966, legislation designed to improve transparency, strengthen consumer protections, and modernize Pennsylvania’s deregulated energy market.

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Key highlights from the conversation include:

• Why Pennsylvania’s deregulated energy market is falling short of its original promise of consumer choice in 2026.
• What Senate Bill 966 does to fix the price-to-compare benchmark so consumers can make a true apples-to-apples comparison between utility and supplier rates.
• Why the current price-to-compare is misleading, with utilities burying roughly 30 cost components in their distribution fees that competitive suppliers have to carry openly in their supply price.
• The hidden cost most Pennsylvania ratepayers don’t see on their bill: subsidizing out-of-state transmission lines with no benefit to Pennsylvania consumers.
• What happened when Maryland effectively ended energy competition, and why one local Maryland grocery store saw a $60,000 electricity bill in a single month.
• How SB 966’s compliance provisions aim to protect consumers while preserving competition.
• Why public utilities owning generation would raise prices on ratepayers.
• What a more transparent, competitive Pennsylvania energy market could look like in five years if SB 966 passes.

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Transcript from Episode 11

Gary Sutton: Welcome to another edition of the Shipley Energy Exchange this morning. I’m Gary Sutton, and we we’re with Senator Kristin Phillips-Hill of the 28 senatorial district — also a good friend. Good morning. Kristen. How are you?

Senator Kristin Phillips-Hill: Gary, it’s always a pleasure to join you and your listeners here on the Energy Exchange.

Gary: Well, it’s an honor on the energy exchange today. And, you always have a lot of energy, so, we won’t exchange it, we’ll just add to it today here on the show. PA Senate Bill 966, “Improving Transparency and Options for Consumers of Electric and Natural Gas and Accountability for Retail Suppliers.” That sounds like the whole thing. But, that’s actually just kind of the title. But I wanted to talk to you this morning about that because obviously you’re dealing with it right now in the Senate here in Pennsylvania. For listeners who aren’t really familiar with Pennsylvania’s deregulated energy markets, can you walk us through how it’s supposed to work and maybe even where it’s failing us right now?

Kristin: So I think what’s really important for your listeners is that for two decades, Pennsylvanians have benefited from a deregulated energy market. What does that mean? It means that consumers, they have choice and they have freedom to select their electricity and their natural gas suppliers instead of what we experienced prior to the 90s, where we were forced or locked into one utility and a monopoly.

So you may remember back with me, we had our age conversation a little earlier. I might be dating myself, I might be dating you as well, but back in the 90s, the state of Pennsylvania, after deregulation, they ran this massive ad campaign. It touted deregulation and there were ads, you may remember them. “Where do you think you are? Pennsylvania?”

So it was all about building awareness that the consumer now had options that they didn’t have to settle for the default provider and their default providers rate that was set by their utility. And that was really considered pretty cutting edge back in the 1990s. But we’re in 2020. And as good as it was in the 90s, it’s falling short for consumers currently in Pennsylvania.

Right now how most people listen to your podcast.

Gary: However, just, you know, tune in and tune in.

Kristin: Most people probably listen to it on a smartphone.

Gary: And on the run

Kristin: And on the run. Absolutely. Walking the rail trail. Take a walk downtown. But how many carriers those listeners on their cell phones jumped between for their cell phone service?

Probably a lot, right? So we have a deregulated cell phone provider market. You shop for your cell phone service, and there’s competition between all of the carriers. And it’s greater now than it has ever been before. And it’s super easy. Now, we won’t name them, but you know, one is pink, one is hot pink. One is red. Cable companies are now even in providing that cell phone service. It’s super consumer friendly. Most importantly, what that means for the consumer is that competition gives them better rates and better deals. And so when dereg happens for electricity back in the 90s, people got to shop for those rates, just like people get to do for their cell phone plans now. So if you’re lucky, back in the day you had one of those bag phones. You remember those old bag phones?

Gary: I do. I do.

Kristin: Again, we are dating ourselves. And today we can’t imagine that there was only one cell phone service provider and that there was only one kind of phone that you could buy. Now people shop for streaming services, people shop for home internet plans, people shop for all kinds of stuff related to their cell phone devices.

So here we are asking the question, “where are we today in 2026?” And it’s falling short because it hasn’t kept up with what we are seeing in other areas where consumers are in the driver’s seat. They get to shop. And that allows them to procure a service that makes the most sense for them.

Gary: Again, the competition obviously lowering prices, giving you a choice out there as you so well explain. What problems, with today’s energy marketplace, does Senate Bill 966 seek to address?

Kristin: Well, I mean, first off, we really market people into the driver’s seat to make the best decisions that they possibly can for themselves: what fits their budget, what fits their needs. Just like you get to do that with the cell phone plan, we want you to be able to choose a supplier that has a great rate, if that’s what you need. If you are really financially conscious person like many York County residents are, we want them to be able to choose a supplier that best for their budget.

Some people may say, “hey, you know, I really want to get that prepaid Visa gift card right?” You can do that. Some people might say “it’s really important for me to have a supplier that has a focus and a large portfolio in renewables.” That’s great. If that’s what you want, that’s where you want to put your money. You can do that too. So I think consumer choice giving consumers real choice is super important.

I also think what this legislation does that a lot of consumers want and need is transparency. You’ve heard me talk about transparency in a lot of other areas, but utility cost transparency is so very important. So right now we see the situation where we are seeing a lot of these high voltage power transmission lines projects being built. Why? We generate a lot of power here in Pennsylvania. Maryland doesn’t; they’ve been shutting theirs down. But they’re citing these high energy use data centers and other types of facilities. What a lot of consumers don’t realize and don’t see transparently on their bill is the fact that we’re subsidizing this transmission line to get that power down to the Maryland line, to send it to energy negligent states like Maryland and Virginia.

So be transparent. What am I actually paying for in that bill? The other thing that this bill does, that I think is really important for consumers, is giving them the price-to-compare benchmark and making it truly apples to apples.

Have you ever gone to the grocery store you want to buy York Peppermint Patties, because its York and we love our peppermint patties? And you’re trying to figure out what’s the best deal. How am I going to get the most peppermint patties for my money? But the one bag is, you know, when you look at that fine print on the label on the shelf it says “This is what you pay per peppermint Patty.” Okay. So then you go and look at a different bag that says, this is what you pay per ounce. So then you’re whipping out your calculator, and you’re trying to figure out how many ounces are on in this bag and how many ounces are in this bag and how many items are in this one. And you’re trying to do this really complex calculations as you’re standing in that grocery store, trying to decide which bag you’re going to purchase, to bring home your York Peppermint Patties. It’s the same thing with the cost of your electric or your natural gas.

We also will make sure that our suppliers and employees are trained to protect consumers, and that they comply with consumer protection law. We know there are bad actors out there. There are bad politicians. The thing I don’t like about bad politicians is they give all of us a really bad reputation. So there’s a component in there, and the suppliers themselves want this, because they want to root out those bad apples.

Then we want to give consumers ease. It’s pretty easy to be able to switch yourcell phone plan. People don’t always want to spend half a day on a phone or on a computer just trying to change their supplier. So really those are the key components of the legislation that we put together.

Gary: In the example you gave on the price to compare it… we’re talking with Senator Kristin Phillips-Hill here this morning from the 28th Senatorial district for Pennsylvania… you talked about the price-to-compare and a benchmark, and you made a great example of saying, “okay, let’s get apples to apples here. Let’s get the same amount, the same amount,” so if you do want to make that comparison, that’s all part of that whole transparency. I think that’s one of the things that maybe annoys consumers. You’re a consumer as well as being a senator. And you then you sit there going, “how do I how do I say I’m getting the best deal when people are using different language to kind of screw me up here a little bit.” Talk about that, if you would.

Kristin: Correct. And guess what? I might be a state senator, but I’m no different from anyone else.

Gary: I know, you’re a mom, you’re a shopper, you’re a wife.

Kristin: I take care of parents. I run a household. I’m incredibly frugal, too. I’m from York County. We guard those dollars and cents. So the problem with that price-to-compare is that, it’s just not straightforward. And actually, it’s pretty significantly flawed. So, for example, electricity suppliers carry the entire cost of running a business in their price per kilowatt hour. In that price per kilowatt hour, there’s about 30 different cost components that go into it. Whereas with the utility, that just has the supply cost in their price per kilowatt hour. So when you go to try and compare, “how am I going to save money? Who’s actually giving you a better price?,” you are not comparing apples to apples. And it makes it really frustrating. So when you go back to that cell phone analogy, you have mobile carriers and they break out all of their costs of doing business. Your sales tax, the FCC charges, your 911 service fee. It’s all broken out for you. No surprises, no trying to figure it out. No guesswork. It’s there. It’s clear. And that’s really when we talk about that price-to-compare benchmark, that’s what we’re really trying to get at with our different suppliers, so that a consumer can make an actual comparison quickly, easily, and do what is in their best interest.

Gary: So you’re essentially saying that utilities have about 30 cost components buried in their distribution rates that suppliers have to carry openly in their supply prices. Can you give listeners a few examples of some of those hidden costs that we might be shielded away from right now?

Kristin: It’s a ton of things: customer service, advertising, cost of capital, billing cost, bad debt, collections, IT, cybersecurity, taxes, legal compliance, licensing, general admin, operations. And we could go on and on and on.

And the biggest again, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, is that cost to build out high voltage transmission lines that have zero benefit to the actual consumer here in Pennsylvania. I will tell you this. So we had a Consumer Protection Committee hearing, right. And I asked this question, “who pays for the high voltage power transmission lines that take power out of state?” You know you asked a really good question when the entire room goes silent and they all start doing this.

Gary: And the awkward moment of silence.

Kristin: So who’s going to answer her question?

And then they finally say Pennsylvania rate payers. And it was like a very quiet response. This is a huge challenge in our region. Can you imagine the federal government comes in by eminent domain, takes our farmers property and then charges us for it and charges us to build the iron giants that spring out of the farmland, and the maintenance and the care of those all comes back on our bill to get that power to the Maryland line. Are you kidding me?

Gary: And then tell you like it as well.

Kristin: Right. No benefit for my constituents. No benefit for our ratepayers. Just again iron giants running through Pennsylvania farm fields.

So you know this is this is one of those things that gets buried into the bill. And it’s not really transparent or accessibleto a consumer.

Gary: You and I used to talk straight. Critics might say, well, utilities aren’t really hiding anything. They’re just organized differently. How do you respond to that? It sounds a little bit like political ease that we hear every now and then, doesn’t it?

Kristin: Look, when they don’t include all of the costs of running the supply side of their business in that price-to-compare, they are hiding those costs in the distribution. And it creates really misleading and unfair representation of that benchmark, and it really hinders the consumer from being able to make a fair comparison, a real comparison. And in turn, it hinders competition, because for some people it’s just too much work to get there.

Gary: You’re a representative, you’re a senator. And as a representative and as a senator, you’ve served in both categories. Your job is to represent as openly as possible so that the people who have chosen you get the whole picture. You’ve argued that the way costs are allocated today can create unintended incentives. How does greater transparency help to ensure that utilities aren’t benefiting financially from costs that really belong on the supply side of this whole equation?

Kristin: So, as you’ve noted, we’ve had a lot of conversations about transparency. I am a firm believer. I know that you are too. You’re in journalism. You communicate with your listeners every day. You share with them the things about our government and our community. So I want transparency at every level. In my role as a state senator, in my personal role as a consumer, I’m looking at what is best for my personal budget. I am no different from anybody else in that regard

So, transparency makes for, in my role as a state senator, a more informed citizen. Sometimes I feel like, “wow, I think I’m way too far out there. Like everybody doesn’t need to know,” but everybody does need to know. Because if I work for people, then I should be transparent with people about what it is I am doing. Because I am their voice, I’m there to do their will.

So in the case of someone who is shopping rates, a more informed consumer is better able to act in their own best interests. It’s about empowering people to take the information that’s available, the best information that they have to make the best informed decision for themselves. Again, it could be you really want to save money. It could be that you have a particular interest in renewable energy. It could be a whole host of things. And so that’s really at the end of the day, what this is all about.

Gary: So for the average Pennsylvanian… and you’re just describing yourself and you have to do all those same things everybody else has to do… who opens their utility bill and wonders how in the world am I going to afford this, how does fixing the price to compare and provide utility cost transparency ultimately help families make smart decisions about their energy options and potentially save on energy costs?

Kristin: Oh, absolutely. Look, if customers are armed with more information as to where their dollars are going, they can make better data driven decisions to either stay with the default service provider or to shop for an energy supplier.

And it’s as simple as that, Gary. It’s about having the information you need to make the best decisions for yourself. It’s just that simple.

Gary: And while many competitive suppliers provide value to customers, some critics will point out, and they’ll point to instances where customers have had negative experiences. So how does, coming back to SB 966, the Senate bill, how does SB 966 address those concerns while preserving the benefits of competition, which I know you want to preserve?

Kristin: Oh, absolutely. Well, you know when you talk to suppliers, they’ll be the first ones to tell you. We want to make sure that we are in compliance with all consumer protection regulations and laws, and training is going to really key, really pivotal.

The training is going to be put on by the public utility commission. And that’s going to inform them of best practices and consumer protection. And like, again, like any industry, even politicians for that matter, there are good actors and there are bad actors. You know, one rotten apple can spoil the bunch. Our grandmother’s all said that. And that’s exactly the case that we have now. So this bill really seeks to keep the good and get rid of the bad. Have that training come through the Public Utilities Commission. They will conduct it. They will give it to all those retail suppliers and those people who are going to work. They’re going to be forward facing to those consumers. They’re going to make sure that they are understanding of best practices, that they’re implementing best practices, and that everyone is acting above board.

And here’s the thing we’ve all heard the horror stories. You’re in radio. You hear a lot of stories, right? Somebody’s mother, somebody’s grandmother got locked into a variable rate. She had no idea what she was consenting to or what she was agreeing to. Now her electric bill is tripled from what it used to be. She’s on a fixed income. This is really dreadful. And who do they call? They probably call their state senator or their state representative.

And then we have to go and figure out how we can help this person get into something that they can afford. And there are all kinds of fly-by-night tactics that need to be stopped. Right? So we’re here, we’re talking Shipley Energy.

Shipley Energy is an iconic brand in York county. They have been in this community for over 100 years, and they’re going to be in this community for a long time to come. We know the Shipley family. We know people who work for the Shipley company. We know what their charitable giving has meant in this community. So reputation for Shipley, it’s a really big part of who they are, what their brand is, and we know them and we trust them.

And unfortunately, not all like electric and gas suppliers can stand on that kind of reputation. They can’t stand on that kind of reputation. And they don’t have that kind of integrity. And so really this part of the bill is crucial because it will protect consumers and we’ll get rid of the bad apples, so we don’t spoil the whole bunch.

Gary: So I know in your discussions, probably at hearings and so forth, in the day and age of polar conversation, which really is an oxymoron, you have someone say, well, maybe we just be better off just abandoning competition. Forget it. Would you tell them? I mean, have any states been successful in that? I know we don’t have to go real far to find one.

Kristin: No, we sure don’t. All you need to do is look south to our neighbors down in Maryland, because that’s essentially what they did. What they effectively did was that they killed competition. And now they have these sky high utility races. Right over the line, northern Baltimore county, I have a colleague. She is a Maryland state delegate. Sometimes issues transcend geopolitical boundaries. There are issues that have impacted those northern Baltimore County constituents that have also impacted my southern York county constituents. So you build partnerships and relationships and you take care of people. That’s what we do. So I had her on a podcast. We were talking about electricity rates and what’s going on down there. She said to me she had a strong locally owned grocery store. Think of like a Saubel’s, we used to have Surefine, Wetzel’s; that kind of a small family grocery store. In one month this past winter, their electricity costs were $60,000. And people wonder why a can of corn costs over $2. This is why.

So they did exactly what we’re saying should not be done, because it has been a failed experiment. And I always say “Pennsylvania problems, solutions.” But we certainly need to look at the success of other states. And in this case, the failure of another state. We sure don’t want to replicate their failure.

Gary: Governor Shapiro has been pretty vocal about utility profits and consumer protection. And how does SB 966 fit into that broader conversation he’s been having with the legislature so far?

Kristin: So I would say, I think regardless of your political affiliation, I don’t know a Republican or a Democrat that doesn’t want consumers to be protected. When it comes to public utility profit, one thing to me that I’m seeing that is really, really, really concerning is that there is a fight going on in the general assembly that utilities want to start to get into the energy generation space. So what does that mean? Let’s hash this out and talk about it.

Public utilities generate power. That would be incredible risk that would be taken on by utility ratepayers. So think about this. All of the cost of that generation facility will now be borne back on to the bills… of you, me, every other consumer, ratepayer in Pennsylvania. Right now, utilities purchase their power from generators. And they are two distinctly different entities. So, what that would essentially do is put that burden and the cost of generation on the backs of ratepayers, but I will say this right now, it would be an absolute recipe for disaster. We can’t go there.

Gary: Back on the back of the consumers. So where does the bill stand right now, Kristen? And what do you need from fellow senators and the public that’s watching this today to move SB 966 forward.

Kristin: So right now it’s in the Senate. Consumer Protection and Professional Licensure Committee. It’s a mouthful, right?

But what’s really important is what we’re doing right now. It’s raising awareness. It’s educating people about why electric and natural gas choice is such a good thing, how we can strengthen it, how we can make it better, how we can make it more transparent, how we can protect consumers better.

So educating people and then informing people so that they can have those conversations with their elected officials. This broadcast or this podcast, dating myself again, it’s going to be heard far and wide. So, I’m sure it’ll be aired all across Pennsylvania and maybe in some other states. But please, Pennsylvanians, let your legislators know in both the House and the Senate how critical this legislation is to protect consumers, insure competition, and give us what it is we need from our energy suppliers on the electric and natural gas side.

Gary: You’ve done a great job of laying out SB 966 this morning, answering a lot of the questions, but if it does pass, what does the Pennsylvania energy market look like let’s say in five years?

Kristin: So for me, I think what I really hope to see happen is that our retail energy market is going to be on a similar standing as our mobile cell phone plans; where choice leads to better prices for consumers and better products for consumers. And I think forcing our utilities to be more transparent in their pricing is a good outcome. I think an educated consumer that is armed with the facts is a great customer, and it would create a market where we, as legislators and consumers, this is what we should all be striving for. And I think in a nutshell, that’s really why we need Senate Bill 966

Gary: SB 966 trying to get a better energy situation for you.

That is our Shipley Energy exchange for with Senator Kristin Phillips-Hill. So Senator, always a pleasure. Thank you.

Kristin: Truly my pleasure, Gary. Thank you so much.

Gary: Until next time, I’m Gary Sutton.

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